Different types of scales to learn for improv

[ibanezImy]

Hi all . What different types of scales are there other than the pentatonic scale? I need to expand my theory of scales for better playing and knowledge for improvising.

 

Google doesn't give a clear answer.

 

Thank you.

[randythoades]

Nothing wrong with major and minor pentatonic, but I suppose it depends on what material you are playing.

 

If you have a search for the '7 modes of the major scale' that would give you a good start as well as the 'harmonic minor scale'.

 

The modes work in a similar way to the positions of the pentatonic scale in that they are all parts of the major scale played in a different part of the neck, but it does allow you to play over different chords and give a different feel rather than always playing in your root scale.

 

People such as Vai and Satriani use these types of scales a lot and often concentrate on one scale at a time to give a specific sound for an instrumental melody, but a lot of guitarists don't use scales as a limit, they use bits of them as a base to play something that sounds right to them.

 

Although I did learn scales, I just worked out (what I believed to be) the relationship between the root and the remaining notes in the scale (the intervals) and the differences between each mode, and then played based upon that to form my own licks and style.

 

Although still broadly mixing major and minor pentatonic I then throw in other notes (such as the minor 3rd, 7th, 9th etc) as I choose to make the sound that I want. So a solo broadly in the Chuck Berry style of pentatonic might suddenly have the flat 2nd from one mode combined with the 3rd from one of the other modes. Hence, I really couldn't play any of the major scale modes well now, I just have absorbed the information to suit my own needs.

I effectively worked out the differences:

 

Ionian = basic major + 2, 4, 6
Dorian = basic minor + 2, 6
Phrygian = minor + b3, b6
Lydian = major + #4
Mixolydian = major + 4, b7
Aeolian = minor +2, b6
Locrian = minor + b2, b5, b6, b7

 

If you were playing the major scale in C, then any of these scales would sound right over a C major progression, but it gets more interesting if you played the Dorian scale (still in C major) now based on a D minor progression (D minor being the second interval of C major). Although the progression might be D minor, a D dorian scale is still essentially playing in C major, but now gives a completely different feel.

 

I am sure there are far more schooled theorists than myself who can agree or completely shoot down this information... and I give no guarantee that I am correct!

 

Just have a google and I am sure there will be a YouTube channel dedicated to this information.

[ezbass]

5 hours ago, ibanezImy said:

Hi all . What different types of scales are there other than the pentatonic scale? I need to expand my theory of scales for better playing and knowledge for improvising.

 

Google doesn't give a clear answer.

 

Thank you.

Pentatonic scales are just abbreviated, 5 note versions of full, 8 note scales. Learn the full scales and then you have more notes to choose from. The scales used, as mentioned above, tend to reflect the chords they’re being played over. As a starting point learn the major (Ionian scale), minor (Dorian or Aeolian) and dominant 7th (Mixolydian). These three will give you all you need to play over a major or minor 12 bar blues. I find the most important thing is to hit the chord tones (the major third over a major Chris for instance), so that you imply that chord with your note choice. However, don’t be constrained by the scales, go ‘outside’ them, a short, chromatic run can add interesting ’flavour’ to your solos.

Edited July 12, 2023 by ezbass

[randythoades]

1 hour ago, ezbass said:

Pentatonic scales are just abbreviated, 5 note versions of full, 8 note scales. Learn the full scales and then you have more notes to choose from. The scales used, as mentioned above, tend to reflect the chords they’re being played over. As a starting point learn the major (Ionian scale), minor (Dorian or Aeolian) and dominant 7th (Mixolydian). These three will give you all you need to play over a major or minor 12 bar blues. I find the most important thing is to hit the chord tones (the major third over a major Chris for instance), so that you imply that chord with your note choice. However, don’t be constrained by the scales, go ‘outside’ them, a short, chromatic run can add interesting ’flavour’ to your solos.

This is what I meant, presented in a much more concise way...!!

[ibanezImy]

Thank you guys, i'm not bashing the pentatonic scale, its just i know how to improvise over it already, so i'm looking to further enhance my knowledge for improvising over scales.

[Dad3353]

I prefer to concentrate on chord tones, which make more sense to me when improvising. It's true that I don't often play over anything monochordal (funk riffs for twenty minutes spring to mind...), but rather pieces from the Real Book and the like. It depends, then, on what genre of music you're playing over, I think. If any one scale was to be worked on, I'd recommend the 12-tone chromatic scale, which can be slotted in almost anywhere..! 

[ezbass]

5 hours ago, ibanezImy said:

Thank you guys, i'm not bashing the pentatonic scale, its just i know how to improvise over it already, so i'm looking to further enhance my knowledge for improvising over scales.

No pentatonic bashing here either, my favourite player, Eric Johnson, uses them all the time. Sometimes, all that’s needed is a bigger than normal interval jump (string skipping helps with this) to really spice things up (Carl Verheyen is the master of this). 

[Crusoe]

I haven't much to add other than, when you start learning about modes it can seem very daunting, but it's not really. If you look at the example of the C major scale mentioned above, the chords in that scale are CM Dm Em FM GM Am Bdim. If you play the notes of the C major scale at the 6th note you will realise that you are playing the Am scale or the Aeolian mode - Am is the relative minor scale of C major. You can do the same for each of the notes in the scale and you will be playing the different modes. I really hope I've got that right. I've only been learning about it recently and I'm sure someone can correct me if I've made any mistakes.

[ibanezImy]

Thank you so much guys for replying, i mean i must be still a beginer even with all this knowledge you guys are throwing at me, i will look into these artists such as Carl Verheyan, steve vai and setriani, also chuck berry.

Edited July 13, 2023 by ibanezImy

[ezbass]

44 minutes ago, ibanezImy said:

Thank you so much guys for replying, i mean i must be still a beginer even with all this knowledge you guys are throwing at me, i will look into these artists such as Carl Verheyan, steve vai and setriani, also chuck berry.

Here's a couple of things that I quickly found on Yt for Carl.

 

 

 

 

[Dad3353]

For anyone starting out on guitar, I will always recommend this (very inexpensive...) method, which put me on an excellent track from an early age. Don't be fooled by the title; it's useful stuff in all genres of playing. Here's an Amazon link; other sources are surely available...

 

Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar. Book 1 ...

 

 

I've worn out quite a few copies, and am still using it over half a century later, and still coming across new things in there. For such a low price, what's there to lose..? Give it a go...

[Crusoe]

9 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

For anyone starting out on guitar, I will always recommend this (very inexpensive...) method, which put me on an excellent track from an early age. Don't be fooled by the title; it's useful stuff in all genres of playing. Here's an Amazon link; other sources are surely available...

 

Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar. Book 1 ...

 

 

I've worn out quite a few copies, and am still using it over half a century later, and still coming across new things in there. For such a low price, what's there to lose..? Give it a go...

The downside is that you will end up wearing a black turtleneck and beret, and star smoking Gitanes.

[Dad3353]

38 minutes ago, Crusoe said:

The downside is that you will end up wearing a black turtleneck and beret, and star smoking Gitanes.

 

Certainly, but what great guitar work..! 

[ezbass]

[ibanezImy]

You know I quite like the blues scale, especially with what is on this short video . I've always liked listening to ZZ top too and loved their playing style.

[knirirr]

On 13/07/2023 at 12:49, Dad3353 said:

 

I've worn out quite a few copies, and am still using it over half a century later, and still coming across new things in there. For such a low price, what's there to lose..? Give it a go...

 

I've probably got too many jazz books already but why not order this one as well? I just have, for delivery before the end of the holidays. 

Already got the turtleneck.

Edited December 24, 2023 by knirirr

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, knirirr said:

I've probably got too many jazz books already but why not order this one as well? I just have, for delivery before the end of the holidays. 

Already got the turtleneck.

 

Best to forego the Gitanes; too; happy Christmas, and have fun with Mickey Baker.