Valve amp operation

[randythoades]

Without wanting to sound like a complete numpty, I am struggling with my Peavey classic 20.

 

I have tended to be a Fender SS or modelling amp player and I normally set a slightly crunchy rhythm tone with my guitar volume on about 5, then roll the guitar volume up to increase the volume and a little extra gain for a lead tone - the same tone but just a bit extra all round which works well to bring the volume up over the rest of the band.

 

But this doesn't work on the Peavey classic 20. I can get a great rhythm tone the same, but rolling up the guitar volume adds almost no amp volume but just adds (too much) gain and doesn't leap out like I was expecting and certainly wouldn't work in a small band situation. Similarly I can get a great lead tone, but rolling back just reduces (too much) gain and not much volume.

 

I tried out several amps (admittedly at the cheaper end) before buying, the peavey delta blues, vox ac10, Fender Blues Junior, Fender HRD, Laney cub 12. I preferred the smaller speaker and the slightly boxy tone of the classic 20 but now I am using it in anger as it were I am finding it lacking. I went back to try valve amps after a 20 year hiatus after hearing a guy in the local pub with a Blues Junior which sounded amazing, but he was also running a full pedal board. I don't use pedals at all, prefer just to have instrument and amplifier.

 

What am I missing? How do people use one amp and guitar without pedals?

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, randythoades said:

Without wanting to sound like a complete numpty, I am struggling with my Peavey classic 20...

 

It should be understood that each amp manufacturer, each model, and each technology, have, inherently, very different tonal responses to controls in the (very different...) pre-amps, so there is very little commonality between them. The settings, and range of result, cannot be equated from one to another. The reasons are as varied as the amps themselves : solid-state does not behave as valve stuff, and EL84 valves do not behave like KT88's etc. The effect of 'gain', 'master volume', tone controls differ; some tone circuits are 'flat' with the control at centre, some with the control max anti-clockwise, some (many..!) are never really 'flat', whatever the setting..!
All of these factors make every combination of amp-cab useful for its own range, but maybe not so good at another. What sounds good at home may well not have what it takes on stage; even less so on a stadium stage. It works both ways, too; the only way to get a Marshall stack to belt out 'that' sound is to crank it, which makes it a poor candidate for bedroom practice in a town centre high-rise block of flats.
In sum, it's 'horses for courses'. One amp for home, another for rehearsals, maybe another for gigs... This is one (of many...) reasons for the advent of Fx pedals in the first place : the ability to 'dial in' the required tone at any volume.
It doesn't surprise me at all that the Classic 20 doesn't 'cut it' on stage. Despite having the same power valves (EL84...) as the Vox AC30, the circuits and cab are not at all the same, and the tonal response are chalk and cheese. You can never get a really clean sound from a Classic 20, at pretty much any volume; that's not how the circuit has been designed. They don't do 'loud'; certainly not the 'loud' that an AC 30 does.
What are your options..? Find an amp which has the tonal variance that you need, in all the situations, you'll be playing, or have a different amp (and settings...) for each usage, or start building a pedal-board around an amp which ticks most of your boxes. It's not really a case of 'SS' v 'Valve' v 'Modelling'. It's just that all rigs have their upside and downside. Such is Life. Hope this helps. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Dad3353

[randythoades]

Thanks for this @Dad3353. Much appreciated and a detailed answer as usual.

From a tone point of view I really like the Classic 20, I like the tonal variations it has and do understand that different amps have different tonal characteristics.

I don't play actually clean, I find a mild overdrive sort of tone for rockabilly, blues and modern country. I have only played at home, not with a band as yet and would expect to mic amp up when I do, I don't need 'loud' really.

So I am happy to have an amp that sounds right at whatever volume level that is and let the PA take the strain. You only really notice when playing along to a cd, not really when just playing with no backing.

 

I don't want to get involved with pedals if I can help it, I have played without them for 30 years and don't want the hassle of cables and power leads. But as it stands, I just can't work out how it can be useful if I can't increase the volume output using the guitar volume enough to change from rhythm to lead on the fly. Even if I did do pedals, surely the pedals likely to give me the effect I need (volume boost and a small amount of gain/overdrive pedal) will likely just do the same as the guitar volume and just hit the amp with a stronger signal which would also give me more gain but no volume increase?

 

Is this likely to be for most tube amps or is it just the EL84? Would a different amp suit this more style more? If not then I will just cut my losses and go back to my normal SS amp. It would be a shame as the tone is lovely overall and adds that extra sparkle that the SS sometimes lacks

[ezbass]

As Dad says, different amps, different responses. I once asked an amp tech the difference between 6L6 and EL34 power stages (typically Fender vs Marshall). He surprised me with the answer. He told me that biggest comes from where the tone stack is in the circuit, either pre or post preamp valves (Fender and Marshall are different). Couple that positioning with different output valves and output transformers (often overlooked) and you very different responses to the input. The name of this very knowledgeable amp tech - Brinsley Schwartz. I was a bit awestruck at the time, having seen him numerous times live, but he was the nicest chap and happy to nerd out on his favourite subject.

[randythoades]

So, is it just a case of like it or lump it?

 

If it has the response that it currently does, how would adding a boost pedal or overdrive help?  I like the tone with guitar volume at 5 and at 10, they are great for my needs, I just need a small volume increase as well.

Or is there a pedal which does the reverse and creates a volume drop that then doesn't massively overload the input when switched off?

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

So, is it just a case of like it or lump it?

 

If it has the response that it currently does, how would adding a boost pedal or overdrive help?  I like the tone with guitar volume at 5 and at 10, they are great for my needs, I just need a small volume increase as well.

Or is there a pedal which does the reverse and creates a volume drop that then doesn't massively overload the input when switched off?

 

From the description of the way you've chosen the Classic 20, I'd say that you'll just have to accept its peccadilles. You can't buck physics, and if it doesn't change its tone enough presently, it's just the way it's been designed. No pedal will change that, so that's a Good Thing. It would count as being a One Trick Pony, so embrace it for what it is or find a modelling amp that can get close to the 'mild overdrive' that you want, but with greater flexibility. No recommendations (I play 'clean'; I've very rarely found any grit, disto or overdrive that adds anything to my admittedly poor playing, and, anyway, I'm a drummer, soooooo...). Not sure that this helps further; time for a visit to a decent amp shop to try stuff out, maybe..? Keep the Classic 20 as nostalgia, or get it to contribute to the cost of an amp better suited to your needs..? 

Edited 4 hours ago by Dad3353

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

Or is there a pedal which does the reverse and creates a volume drop that then doesn't massively overload the input when switched off?

An EQ pedal could achieve that, like one of those 6/10 band graphics. However, I suspect that your amp may still react the same way, as it will still be receiving less/more signal. I’d be more inclined to add an overdrive pedal that will add the gain tone you’re looking for for lead, etc and then going back to your clean tone (or less driven) when off. You might find that the right pedal could be an on all the time effect, as it might react to the guitar’s volume knob in the way you’re used to. If that was the case, you could just have it on top of the amp with a short lead to the input, giving the feel of a guitar straight to the amp.

 

EDIT: Overdrive pedals = massive rabbit hole 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by ezbass

[randythoades]

31 minutes ago, ezbass said:

An EQ pedal could achieve that, like one of those 6/10 band graphics. However, I suspect that your amp may still react the same way, as it will still be receiving less/more signal. I’d be more inclined to add an overdrive pedal that will add the gain tone you’re looking for for lead, etc and then going back to your clean tone (or less driven) when off. You might find that the right pedal could be an on all the time effect, as it might react to the guitar’s volume knob in the way you’re used to. If that was the case, you could just have it on top of the amp with a short lead to the input, giving the feel of a guitar straight to the amp.

 

EDIT: Overdrive pedals = massive rabbit hole 

 

 

Many thanks for the feedback both. Seems that what I want to achieve isn't quite in the remit of my amp. I might just go back to my comfort zone of 90s solid state.