Fender Pro Junior iv but with less power

[owen]

Hi all,

 

We have a Fender Pro Junior iv at work. We bought it to use as a recording amp. However, to get it to sing it is still mind bendingly loud in an enclosed space. Any thoughts on how to tame it?

 

TIA

[ezbass]

Small valve amps can be incredibly loud. I had a Bassman reissue, ‘just’ 40 watts, basically unusable without causing walls to be blown over! I made it into a gain + master volume, as opposed to just volume set up, with a mod from Vyse https://vyseamps.com/index.html , worked a treat. The other option is to use an attenuator.

[owen]

Thanks. This https://www.coda-music.com/swart-night-light-junior-attenuator.html  looks like it might fit the bill. We are so used to needing bucketloads of power in bass rigs for headroom that we forget that guitar amps are a whole different game. A 1 watt amp would have been WAY better.

[Dad3353]

Back then, in the murky distant past, we would put a cab flat face down on a carpeted floor; that tamed the excess decibels, and allowed us to 'crank' a little more 'tone' without breaking glass windows. This worked for Hiwatt DR504 amps; it might be worth a try with your combo..? 

[Soledad]

Similar issue with my Super Champ which has a pair of 6V6 output valves. Rated 12 - 15 watts (my last Genz head was rated 900, into 4ohms mind).

Boy these are loud, easily gigable especially these days with small backlines and PA.
So, just too loud to drive in comfort. Maybe a change of exhaust would help??!

I asked here about swapping the 8ohm Greenback for a 16ohm (a 3dB cut)  but apparently that is a very bad idea in valve amps ( @Dad3353 told me).

Check google and it is a universal challenge talked about everywhere.
Best solution I've read about is the attenuators you can buy that will soak a lot of the power away. Some even have stepped values and I recon I'd need to drop mine to effective say 4 watts, which is a lot.
I don't understand how these are OK given they alter the load the output sees and must surely alter impedance as they convert some of the power to heat.
Also they are not cheap, I've seen decent ones around £150 which is a lot to just dump some power.
Also, the view generally is they affect sound.

Basically - it's a very common problem and I don't see a good way round it. The best of the not great options seems to be the attenuator.
I suspect we're all stuck with it as power valves only come in (I think) 4 flavours> EL84; EL34: 6V6; 6L6. So far as I know paired OP valves are going to come out around 15 or 40 watts (6V6 15; 6L6 40, similar with the ELs).

There are 5 watt valve amps around - often pricey and running (I believe ) a single OP valve and some switchy gubbins to get the push-pull... see how technical I got there 

And to think when I found my Super Champ I very nearly bought a Hot Rod (2 x 12s, 40 watts!!). It's clear to me now why these fabulous valve combos like the Hot Rod are so cheap - cos they are almost unusably loud. 

[Dad3353]

44 minutes ago, Soledad said:

Similar issue with my Super Champ...

 

There's a lot of mis-conception here, I think. Valve amps, including the ones cited, aren't loud if you turn 'em down, using the volume control. I offer, as proof, our Laney VC50 2x12 combo, which strips paint off the doors if 'opened up' (and has toured around festival stages for a decade or so...), but can be calmed if the volume is kept below '1'. Also my Fender Bassman Export 50, into its 2x15 cab, with which I've played bass at outdoor venues with no PA, no problem, but I use for guitar practice at home, too, keeping the volume down the same way. Our main bass amp is a Hiwatt 200w 4xKT88 PA head, into an HH folded horn 2x15, which has headroom enough to crack open WWII bunkers, but when used sensibly at rehearsal volumes, is perfect.
OK, if it's scorching 'o/p valve-bending' distortion that's required, I'd agree that the valves in these amps don't 'bend' until they get to stadium volume, with very, very little in the way of manufacturer's wattage. I started out, decades ago, with a Watkins Westminster valve amp; that was definitely not made for stadiums (and its 'valve-bending' was not its strongest suite...), but could be played at home without breaking glass. These Fender/Vox amps are not made for home use, but for filling a large hall even before going into overdrive.
What are the options..? If it's clean sound that's wanted, just turn it down; it won't harm it. If 'drive' is required, as I remarked in a previous post, lay it flat on carpet; that'll take some 'bite' out of it. Better still, use a pedal, such as the ubiquitous 'Tube Screamer' (why do you think it was so named..?), which produces overdriven valve tones at a controllable level, or, more radical, change amp for a (much...) lower wattage. One reference would be the famous 'pignose', vaunted by Mr Page and others for 'hot' solos. There are micro-amps, with a 'less-than-1W' output, using simply an ECC83 pre-amp valve, which can give convincing tones. We've already mentioned power soaks; no, they don't adversely affect the amp driving them, and give a good result, but they can be expensive, it's true.

One of my favourite amps of all time is the Fender Twin Reverb, but its weight and horrendous volume make it a poor buy for home use (although I'd enjoy playing through one outside to the fields...). Personally, my 'style' of play doesn't so much involve 'valve-bending' (I play cleaner, 'jazz' tones usually...), but if I want to break out into 'rock' territory, my pedals to the job, and I'm certainly not such a tone snob as to only content myself with the 'real thing'. If anything, I'd prefer biasing my amps to a cooler o/p, so that they break up later, and get several decades of life out of them. Too hot, for early break-up, and it's a constant stream of valve acquisition and re-biasing that starts to add up, financially. Fine for a headline guitarist with an amp tech on hand and a big enough bank balance; that's not me.

Soooooo... There's my take on valve amp 'loudness'. If playing clean, turn it down. If screaming solos are in order, use a pedal or change to a lower-power amp. That's all; carry on, folks. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Dad3353

[randythoades]

Or just get with the times and use technology, plug-ins, modelling effects board or even modelling amps in the studio. I am not a pro by any means, but I wouldn't even think about using an amp in the studio now with all of the various Sanamp and cab simulation solutions. In fact, I rarely use an amp at all these days and just plugged into either FRFR monitor cab, or into PA depending on what I am function we were doing (not playing live these days since COVID though). The only band I used an amp for is a rockabilly band, and then I have a 30w solid state Roland Blues Cube Hot which stays clean pretty much the whole way up and use a boost pedal for a tiny bit of extra gain for solos. I used the Line out into PA for going front of house.

 

Even a 1watt valve amp is pretty loud and the smaller speaker might not be the sound you were thinking of.

[Dad3353]

Most valve micro-amps provide means of connecting to a speaker cab, so as not to have to rely on the micro-speaker built-in for the tone. Just sayin'. 

[Soledad]

Someone said 'turn 'em down'.... 

Back to the OP, and Fender valve combos as the case in point. They are truly brilliant things for the magic Fender sound, for shedfulls of headroom, as a pedal platform... But when you want to drive the valves into that soft clip only valves can truly do, you have to crank them up.
Ask any guitar forum, you'll get pretty much the same: attenuators, pre-amp drivers and / or overdrive sim pedals.
I share this issue and empathise.
There's a good valve amp guy near me, I intend to ask him when next over there.

 

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Soledad said:

Someone said 'turn 'em down'.... ...

 

Yes indeed; amps with no Master volume control will only 'scream' when volume is turned up high, splitting ear-drums in the process, unless in a stadium (and even then, for some...). The solution there is to turn 'em down, and use a 'Tube Screamer' pedal. It's not 'cheating'. (Or, as I mentioned, put it down flat on carpet...). If you want to 'bend' power valves, it might get loud, end of.